A favorite ploy of liberals these days has been the repetitive nature of the accusation. As Bush himself once made mention, you have to repeat the propaganda... None on the left have allowed this statement to get to far into their archives instead keeping it close to the top of their stacks to invoke as an apparent example of the Bush/Cheney plan to orchestrate and then initiate any and all secretive plans from the invasion of Iraq to the proposed cancellation of the Nov. '08 elections, to the envisioned failed Iranian invasion scheduled, according to them, for later this year or early next.
But liberals have been enjoying some limited success with the same accusatory tactic in resent years with little if any defensive flack from either the White House or those in right wing radio. Since it is on the hallowed American radio waves that the debate now rages far more than in the halls of congress it seems fitting to call upon those on the left to justify and to quantify their message for once.
Rendition of American citizens and those accused due in at least some part to the Patriot Act or none FISA approved wire taps.
Jeff Farias does a local show here in Phoenix on Air America. Many here listen, I among them. Jeff is an affable guy who seems to be interested in quite a wide array of liberal issues. But when he began to go into the often propagandized loss of Constitutional Right and Civil Liberties on his show today because of both HR1955
(which is yet to go to the Senate for debate let alone a vote) and the Patriot Act it called to mind a simple thought, "prove it!" I called in.
I have on occasion brought up this subject but it has never been justifiably answered for me by those on the left. Who has been rendered from US soil and who exactly are those people whose Rights and Liberties have been violated leading to either a wrongful conviction or other punishment?
Where are those who have been arrested, prosecuted and actually subjected to a state or federally funded vacation destination? Why, when the local ACLU representative made her appearance on Jeff's show was she not touting the current situation with any number of cases where these egregious and often draconian rules and regulations have caused suffering to an otherwise completely innocent person minding their own business? Where is the laundry list of names associated with the various assumed violations of Constitution Law? Where and who are the affected?
I would naturally assume that with the myriad of laws broken and the over-reaches of power that there should be available a long list of those suffering under this intrusive and irrational regime. And of those affected by the Patriot Act which has been sold by the left as the deterioration of our Bill or Rights, the literal trashing of our beloved Constitution, where are the hundreds if not thousands of people filing law suits to find those missing and hundreds, perhaps even thousands more filling the streets with the demands for the release of those taken by thieves in the night without the proper legal documentation required by the 4th Amendment? Surely there would be, if the assumption of these violations is to be believed, people demanding action in the names of those affected.
The ACLU at the very least, I would think, would be up to their necks in alligators fighting for the release or the redress of grievances of these find upstanding citizens caught in the web of deceitful wire taps and infiltrations of both public and private organizations. The affected surely would be screaming to high heaven so to speak to be heard...
Upon Jeff's return from a break he did indeed supply a few names. Professor Kevin Barrett, the disgraced University Prof. and Ward Churchill sidekick who taught conspiracy theories in his class. I spent some time searching for the events Jeff mentioned, about Barrett's house being broken into by police lacking the "legal documentation" for such an entry but to no avail. If you know where it is please forward it to me. But his background as a vocal proponent of 9/11 conspiracy and his affiliation with Muslim Christian Jewish Alliance for 9/11 Truth would seem an appropriate reason for him to be looked into. Someone who claims to know a truth where some other truth exists would seem notable enough of a reason for the government to desire to keep an eye on him in the public interest. That and his long standing as a trouble maker I am sure moves him up a page or two on the list of those who could quite possibly represent a threat in some way, shape or form.
There is of course a place in this great nation for questioning authority. It could be said that this represents the very essence of Americas roots, questioning the authority of the King to reign supreme over a people desirous of their own freedom. But when no freedom has been taken it becomes an academic exercise. Then there was Ann Wright and her BFF Medea Benjamin who were denied entry into Canada because it is alleged that their names appear on an FBI watch list. I was surprised by this but had heard Benjamin's name a week ago so I did more research finding that she is begging for the government to keep an eye on her by her choice of activities. From Cuba to being anti-trade, she has become a spokesman of sorts for just about every anti-American organization you can find. And Wright, who left her position in the state department quite publicly too has been making the rounds to promote her name in certain circles that the government is sure to have an interest in.
These are far from the average everyday working stiff who is caught unaware in a cyber-dragnet then brought up on trumped up charges only to be rescued by the ACLU or some other saver of lost souls from the clutches of a run away federal monster. Again the idea of, "if you ain't got nothing to hide, you ain't got nothing to fear" comes to mind. But I know that simplistic 2nd grade mentality is far from sufficient for a constitutionally questionable application of law. So I would offer that those not making themselves a target probably (in general) would not have a reason to fear being wrongfully accused of a crime as any interaction they would have would not raise any red flags for investigators to focus on. So far this theory appears to be correct.
Besides, would it not make more sense if your desire was to simply rid yourself of annoyances like Benjamin and Wright, to allow them to leave and then deny their re-entry into the country? That would be a constitutional question wouldn't it? And as for Professor Barrett, his activity keeps him on a short leash when he constantly creates a reason to be watched by his choice to be involved in a number of questionable organizations, just like our two find upstanding ladies are involved with. By the way, none of these "radicals" were rendered either.
So where are these affected? There are none. If there were they would be paraded nightly by Katie Couric and the rest of the network anchors along with CNN and the rest of cable. Not because they are biased but because that would be a huge story.
Every news outlet would be clambering for a story like this. But alas, they simply are not there to be clambered over...
But what would I know; I'm just an Average American.
The Affected?
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Posted By: Average American Posted on: Oct. 31, 2007 at 12:13 AM |
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Oct. 31, 2007 at 08:25:32 PM
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| MiC, I wouldn't spend so much time fashioning a response to AA's article's. He has shown (recently) that he is a "write and run" article poster. That is, enlightening us with his views, but rarely returning to defend his views. Kinda sad really. |
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Oct. 31, 2007 at 09:53:51 PM
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| Great answer MIC, there is no evidence but it must be true. If anyone doubts it, they are idiots! That's too impressive.
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Oct. 31, 2007 at 10:06:03 PM
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| Back to the Rush's GOP playbook;you guys wouldn't know truth if it bit you in the a**.
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Oct. 31, 2007 at 10:23:02 PM
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| I won't bore you with old adages like: Those without a voice don't get heard . . . or Dead men tell no tales. Such subtle allusion would be lost on you. Let me be more direct. This country practices torture. This country ignores habeas corpus. This country practices extraordinary rendition. This country employs lawless mercenaries to use not only overseas, but on our own soil. The Bush Administration has fought valiantly to push through laws that make such activities possible, and to undermine laws that get in the way of these policies. These practices are patently unconstitutional. These practices violate international treaties to which we are a signatory, and thus once again violate the Constitution. When not going to such lengths as indefinite detainment and "enhanced interrogation," this Administration employs a level of overt and indirect intimidation against its opponents that rivals anything practiced during the heyday of the Soviet Union. You are simply a blind fool AZRW, doggedly determined to be the Good German to the bitter end. I commend you mindless Brown-Shirt loyalty. |
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Oct. 31, 2007 at 10:29:24 PM
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| MIC Nice AAR talking points. Randi trained you well. By the way they caugh the blackwater arsonist. Dan Glaister in Los Angeles Thursday November 1, 2007 The Guardian A boy playing with matches caused a fire that went on to burn 15,000 hectares (38,000 acres) and destroy 21 homes, one of 23 blazes that swept through California last week leaving a trail of destruction. According to officials, the boy accidentally lit what became known as the Buckweed fire near the city of Agua Dulce, north-east of Los Angeles. The boy, whose name and age have not been released, was handed over to his parents after being questioned by county sheriffs. The case will be passed on to the district attorney's office. It was unclear whether the boy had been arrested. "He admitted to playing with matches and accidentally starting the fire," a sheriff's department sergeant, Diane Hecht, said in a statement. |
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Oct. 31, 2007 at 11:28:37 PM
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| First let me be straight forward with Indie... I do not write and run. I have however been busy with other interests. The idea of coming back here to constantly rehash someones singular arguments against me becomes none productive and I allow my articles to move down the line to allow others to post and be heard regularly. But if it is an issue for you indie I will do my level best to stay more engaged. To MIC... This country practices torture. On who or is it whom? Are you talking about extreme interrogations? Against people who would rather see you dead because of your beliefs or lack of sharing theirs? Or do you mean to say that any interrogation not falling within your standards of what is humane would be torture? While the UN and Geneva Conventions would tend to agree with you on specifics, they are far from the final authority on what works and what does not and what is and what is not torture. even within those guidelines there are room for interpretation which is why President Bush had requested a clarification so everyone would be on the same page. This country ignores habeas corpus. Against who? Who has had this right ignored against them in the process of being arrested who was later convicted on those charges? This country practices extraordinary rendition. Again to sound like a broken record, against who? If you had names you would have posted them by now. MIC I respect you, but this is a weak argument and you have nothing to provide as proof that these things are happening except for yours and other interpretations of the laws as they currently sit on the books. And this Rhoades inspired scare tactic...This country employs lawless mercenaries to use not only overseas, but on our own soil. You mean the same organization that appeared when requested to the US Congress to testify about their activities in Iraq and who has just been relieved of their duties in Iraq. Lawless? Really. Seems to me they are acting within the law and providing that which the law is requesting. You might have had an argument if they had told Congress to go pound sand. And before you sprain (sp) a finger in your reply about them possibly lying under oath or to Congress, they will surely by punished to the full extent of the law should perjury charges be brought against them. You know Farias did damn near his whole show today on fear..,. Fitting really as that is all the left can pedal especially in this debate. The Patriot Act is going to cause people to be arrested and placed in dark cold cells with no representation...Where are they? This country ignores habeas corpus. Against who, give me a name? Bush is getting ready to invade Iran? Why would you think that, simply because he has not said he would not? You love to say that we on the right use fear as the control, but it is the left, full of desire for power in the top (not your run of the mill repeater Democrat) tiers that constantly bring fear into the conversation. We do fear. We fear that which we can prove. Terrorist attacked the world trade center twice. They want to do it again because they have said so. This we fear. You fear Bush canceling the Nov. elections although he has not done anything like that to date. You fear an invasion into Iran based on the invasion of Iraq. But in Iraq we had a reason to go in, Saddam's refusal to abide international law in regards to proving he was disarmed. You dear Constitutional powers being used by the Commander in Chief without oversight when he had oversight from a number of congressional leaders, some of who you now want to see as President. It was one of your stalwarts of Progressive thought that once said all we have to fear is fear itself. We on the right fear that which is fearful while the left fears that which they can not see. I for one wish all administrations would be more secretive so the New York Times and others would stop handing our secrets out to the enemy in the Sunday paper. Somethings need to be kept secret because when you are tracking the bad guys you really don't want them to know you are looking at their bank records, monitoring their radio transmissions and that you are tracking their movement. And this final gem from MIC's post...These practices violate international treaties to which we are a signatory. This is another attempt to claim that those in the custody of the US government are subject to the Geneva Conventions. Though they fight for no flag, lack uniforms distinguishing them as the opposing force, and are the major violators of human rights with their regular practice of beheadings, real torture and down right disgusting treatment of women within their sphere of influence... Defending them against loud rock music, growling dogs and uncomfortable water related interrogation is saddening... |
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Nov. 1, 2007 at 12:08:52 AM
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| Thank you for reminding us once again why the Emperor has no clothes, Mick! I agree with Indie, the BAA Boy is into Drive-By-Rehashings of Right-Wing Droppings. Whether you begin with the September 2000 PNAC blueprint for regime change in Iraq, Rebuilding America's Defenses, uncovered by the Sunday Herald - that 'global Pax Americana', drawn up for Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush and Scooter Libby - or the infamous 16 little words in Bush's 2003 SOTU about the cooked yellowcake intel or the Downing Street Memo and take it right up to Bush's Tuesday tantrum, it's incomprehensible to me how any rational American could not conclude that the Bush Administration is the greatest threat to America's way of life since the Tea Taxes of the 1760s! Remember Bush talking in November 2006 about working in a bipartisan fashion and challenging skeptics to watch not just his words but his deeds: "There's areas where I believe we can get some important things done," he said. "And to answer your question, though, how do we convince Americans that we're able to do it? Do it. That's how you do it. You get something done. You actually sit down, work together, and I sign legislation that we all agree on. And my pledge today is I'll work hard to try to see if we can't get that done." But since then, it's become clear what Bush meant by working together involves Democrats caving in and giving him whatever he asks for. At his October 17 press conference, he pronounced, once again, that "it's time to put politics aside and seek common ground." But when a NYT reporter asked: "A year ago, after Republicans lost control of Congress, you said you wanted to find common ground. This morning you gave us a pretty scathing report card on Democrats. . . . I'm wondering how have you assessed yourself in dealing with Democrats this past year? How effective have you been in dealing with them on various issues, and do you think you've done a good job in finding common ground?" Bush's reply: "We're finding common ground on Iraq. We're -- I recognize there are people Congress that say we shouldn't have been there in the first place. But it sounds to me as if the debate has shifted, that David Petraeus and Ryan Crocker's testimony made a difference to a lot of members. I hope we continue to find ground by making sure our troops get funded. "We found common ground on FISA," he added. Breathes there a man with brain so dead who blieves any of that? "Common ground" on Iraq? The gutting of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that Congress temporarily approved last August? That's "Common Ground"? "Common ground" so rich that the White House now believes the only way Bush will be able to influence the process for the balance of his term is by vetoing legislation rather than using the Signing Statement or by issuing administrative orders, as he has recently on veterans' health care, air-traffic congestion, protecting endangered fish and immigration, etc., etc. Gimme a break, you guys! I CHALLENGE ALL YOU WINGNUTS TO PUBLISH AN ARTICLE DELINEATING ALL THE POLICIES AND LEGISLATION THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS WROUGHT WHICH HAVE IMPROVED THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR AMERICANS - AND STOP TRUCKIN' IN THE MANURE!
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Nov. 1, 2007 at 02:10:38 AM
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| RE: This country ignores habeas corpus. Against who? Who has had this right ignored against them in the process of being arrested who was later convicted on those charges? BAA Boy: "The battle over President Bush's power to indefinitely detain a U.S. resident without charge moves to the full federal appeals court in Richmond this morning, as the judges consider the case of Qatari national Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri. "A three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit ruled in June that Bush had overreached his authority when he declared Marri an 'enemy combatant' and that the Constitution protects U.S. citizens and legal residents such as Marri from unchecked military power. The administration is now appealing to the full court, which will hear arguments from both sides." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/31/AR2007103100502.html |
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Nov. 1, 2007 at 10:48:19 AM
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| Postman, According to Fox News, the fires were set by Al Queda. (BOO!!!) So I guess this kid is on the way to Guantanamo right now. I hope he likes playing with dogs. |
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As for the your incessantly rehashed and trite question "Where are those who have been arrested, prosecuted and actually subjected to a state or federally funded vacation destination?", the reason you feel it has never been satisfactorily answered is because you fail to comprehend the answer when it is right in front of your face. You have fired this silly question at us on multiple occasions in the past, and we have provided you a list of names of "detainees" who to this day remain uncharged but incarcerated, or released without apology or redress. That doesn't satisfy you. Then I explain to you that the larger part of the iceberg lies under water. In other words, although the few documented abuses of power and unconstitutional actions are important, the real danger comes from the potentially legion numbers of unwarranted wiretaps, detainments, intimidations, blackmails, and God knows what else. At latest count, that we know of, the NSA wiretapping program has identified over 20,000 Americans on the "watch list." What?!!! 20,000 Al Queda in our midst! I thought we were fighting them there so we didn't have to fight them here! Now they is us!!! Not to mention, I was under the impression that 9-11 happened because our intelligence community was unable to isolate the real Al Queda communications from the sea of irrelevant data acquired during intelligence collection. Now all we have to do is perform FBI investigations on 20,000 American's post haste . . . or just lock them up. Come on AA. Do you really think that the Bushies aren't wiretapping political opponents (when not sending them anthrax)? Do you really think that No-Fly List is not being used for retribution? Do you really think that people who speak out against this Administration do not eventually make it on to some "Enemy of the State" list?
The first time you asked me this idiotic question was on the Voice of Arizona Radio Show, and I answered that I can't point to any specific people that have had a bullet to their head courtesy of this government (as far as I know), but it is a sliding slope, and as soon as we tolerate and get comfortable with little oversteps of the Constitution, before you know it those minor transgressions become glaringly obvious -- and it will be too late correct. Not to mention all the unpublicized infringements that you so breezily assume do not exist (most of the German's after the fall of Berlin claimed that they had no idea about the genocide committed on their own soil, sometimes right in their backyard). You didn't understand my answer back then, and it seems like you will not understand it now.
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