a Primer for Dummys on the Illegal Alien Issue in 3 Easy Steps

Posted By: AZ Moderate
Posted on: Apr. 24, 2006 at 11:01 PM

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As a very concerned voting constituient, I would like to present our “leadership” with A Primer for Dummys on the Illegal Alien Issue in 3 Easy Steps:

1. Close our southern border. Slam it shut. Choke off the invasion from Mexico!!

2. Go after the illegal employers. Fine them to the fullest extent of the law and put a few of them in jail as an example.

3. Apply the law!!! The illegal alien crises will evaporate if you will just apply the law already on the books and dry up the illegal hiring!! The illegal aliens will migrate back across the border into Mexico.

Duhhh!!

PS Dummy "leaders": Check the features of the Mexican Constitution dealing with immigrants out if you need an example to follow!

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bella_apolonia

Apr. 26, 2006 at 04:24:17 PM

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Unfortunately as you promote and request the application of laws on the books, this issue is a long way off from being resolved.

The ramifications of the thunderous voices against illegal immigrants I'm afraid to say has created the ugliness of racism to forcefully rear its ugly head.

Tone and tolerance needs to be advocated for the safety of these HUMAN BEINGS. As I stated before; the sole purpose of most (excluding the group from MEChA you so adamantly despise for their unruliness) is the Great American Dream.

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prometheus

Apr. 26, 2006 at 06:50:21 PM

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Take this thought for what it is . . . If you visit or move to another country. You should expect to have to speak the lanquage that is printed on their currency? BOTTOM LINE

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AZ Moderate

Apr. 26, 2006 at 08:02:37 PM

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Bella, thank you for your comment. As always I respect and appreciate your opinion.

But, may I say, you are off base when you meekly apologize for the true racists.

“The ramifications of the thunderous voices against illegal immigrants I'm afraid to say has created the ugliness of racism to forcefully rear its ugly head.” How can you blame racism on the reaction to racism?!? La Raza (The Race) is by definition racist, and MEChA is subversively so with its promotion of “reconquista” for Mexico and the establishment of so-called Aztlan.

For you to say that I adamantly despise MEChA for being “unruly” is quaint. I don’t despise it – I expose it and oppose it! And it is a great deal more than simply “unruly”. It is an anti-American group subversively campaigning for the diminishment of our United States.

Have you been paying attention?

|------------------------------ La Raza (the Racist movement) ------------------------------|
|The Council of La Raza (the benign coordinating committee for storefront display)|
------------MEChA (the raw Racist underbelly of the La Raza movement)----------
..************************************ Reconquista ********************************/
|--------------------------------- AZTLAN UBER ALLES! -------------------------------------|

Now I agree that exposing and opposing La Raza racist movement may stir up latent hatreds, but that is neither here nor there. Exposing and opposing La Raza's racism is neither the cause of those hatreds on either side, nor should the racist agenda of La Raza get a pass because of some red-neck haters among a largely benevolent American population.

What say you apolonia apologist?

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bella_apolonia

Apr. 26, 2006 at 10:30:48 PM

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I agree with YOU in that the groups that wish to do harm and try to take over the United States needs to be dealt with. There are many citizens not familiar with the groups that you continue to "expose and oppose". Knowledge is golden, but there is also a misconception and lack of comprehension in understanding the differences of the "illegal immigrants" as well as "legal immigrants".

There are the wretched self-righteous groups "I'm white therefore I'm better than you" group that rises on any opportunity to spew their hatred and violence.
The illegal immigrants shouldn't get a pass because of some "red-neck haters", but they are more than that. The haters are not limited to the likes of a "Billy Bob" but part of a larger organization belonging to the National Alliance as well as the NEW Minuteman Project (name change to appear patriotic)which calls for the beatings of the Mexican men, women and children. My lament pleads for the safety and humanity of all.

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AZ Moderate

Apr. 28, 2006 at 03:39:49 PM

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Bella, I’m not familiar with the NEW Minuteman project. I thought I had heard something about a Neo-Nazi group that was getting its oar in the water on the border. Is that them?

The Minuteman Project has been one hundred percent violence free from everything I’ve heard. I know known haters such as the Neo-Nazis are not welcome in the project.

Your point is that the focus the Minute Man Project and Americans like me put on this invasion is bound to stir up nests of vipers such as the American Neo-Nazis.

I’m afraid you are probably correct. These fringe groups you will have with you always, to paraphrase a teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. I lament that. I am a rabid supporter of human rights, as protected in our precious Constitution and Bill-of-rights. That is why I am a member of the ACLU. Beatings are unacceptable, whether on our border or in some CIA prison or in Mexico or …

But the invasion goes on. To ignore it is to cede our national sovereignty by default. It’s not a good situation, but it is a situation of the illegal aliens’ making. These poor Mexican peons don’t have to violate our sovereignty.

Of course the Mexican government, the Catholic Church, the American Government, Corporate America, some unions, some Hispanic leaders all use these poor Mexican peons for a wide variety of selfish purposes. And they need to be reigned in. But it remains a demographic invasion by lawbreakers. These poor Mexican peons don’t have to violate our sovereignty.

If they would stop invading our country by the back door and come through the front door, the problem would be solved. These entities that feed on them would be reigned in.

And so would the fringe hate groups. These poor Mexican peons don’t have to violate our sovereignty.

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prometheus

Apr. 28, 2006 at 05:39:12 PM

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I was just listening to conservative radio. And the DJ (I don't know who he was . . . Blamed the liberals for the Immagration . . . City being shut down on Monday problem? I suppose Rush Limbaugh turning himself in to police is also The fault of liberals? All they do is spin! Talkin outta both sides of their faces . . . conservative talkin heads

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AZ Moderate

Apr. 28, 2006 at 07:54:47 PM

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Prometheus, reminds me of the classic movie 'Apocalypse Now'.

“Oh man, the bulls*** piled up so fast in Vietnam, you needed wings to stay above it.” Captain Benjamin L. Willard (Martin Sheen}

Spin is a four letter word.

“Oh man, the bullspin piled up so fast in in this Bus***e regime, you needed wings to stay above it.”

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June

Apr. 29, 2006 at 11:40:07 AM

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Yo Mody - havin' a time keeping up with you! You’re one prolific (and quite entertaining) writer. That's good news/bad news, I guess.

An observation, though - if viewed as criticism, please consider it constructive - mixing the immigration issue with La Raza is needlessly confusing.

Agree - make the borders bulletproof. Fences are quaint, 21st Century technology is better!

I agree with Bella about the resolution - or irresolution - of the immigration issue prior to the November elections. The reasons are numerous, politically pragmatic and all originate in Congress because it's an election year. That throws this legislative hot potato into the next Congress.

Domestic anti-American movements are a legitimate topic and I believe we all see eye-to-eye on them, in general. But to co-mingle La Raza and the National Anthem in Spanish in a discussion of immigration policy is like introducing Taco Bell into a discussion of Mexican cuisine.

Immigration policy: I agree with your contention that enforcement of existing laws would be adequate if the Guest Worker Genie weren’t out of the bottle - that is t-h-e issue that condemns the concept.

How do we ever round up all the illegals for deportation - now or in the future - particularly since the GW Genie has had/will continue to have time to construct a modern Latino underground railroad? Right now, I'm convinced that a motivated illegal could find enough cover to live out his/her days in the US and probably collect SocSec retirement benefits to boot.

On La Raza: it appears there's a street term, "la raza", that embraces all issues Latino, including MEChA. Then there's Council of La Raza which still looks to me like a legit Latino advocacy group. I may well be wrong but I have yet to uncover a link between the two. Thus, my question - what’s the basis for your contention that the Council is just a front?

It's a minor point but I keep asking for validation of that link and you're staying ahead of me with new articles. Help me resolve this one, hunh?

Now, for what it's worth, here's how I see the relationship between la raza, La Raza and immigration policy. GW Bush's GW Genie has both logical supportors and logical detractors: less economic disruption vs American jobs for American citizens (a corollary is the "jobs American citizens don't want" argument for economic slavery); illegals are lawbreakers vs. illegals are risk-takers like the 19th Century pioneers, just trying to improve the quality of their lives; a GW provision in the law provides the incentive for illegals to register voluntarily vs no amnesty for lawbreakers along with the related national dragnet.

It's predictable that "la raza" and La Raza would be for the Guest Worker provision for no other reason than self-interest, no? That these outfits have additional agendas seems irrelevant to immigration policy.

However, it's in the secondary agendas where the polarizing emotions emerge - whether it's overzealous patriots rebelling against Mexican flagwavers or out-and-out racists calling for "American justice" or Paul Reveres casting about with warnings of Atzlan. These issues spill over into, and taint, any meaningful discussion of equity or the practicalities of what to do about the illegals.

Make sense?

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joeblow

Apr. 29, 2006 at 07:12:02 PM

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What if we, as a species, agree to give up the idea of national borders, and learn to get along with each other as a global society. Seriously, our governments are doing much more to harm us than they are to help us, and I think people can generally get along with each other without some huge bureaucracy telling them what they can and can't do. We'd need a local police force to deal with true criminals (those who would harm another person) and that would be it. The rest of us can just live by the rule of: Be nice to each other. Then we wouldn't look at this as in "invasion" or an illegal alien "problem" but some new neighbors moving in. Perhaps we would welcome these people into our neighborhoods, get to know them, and perhaps learn a little something about the human race as opposed to staying in our own little xenophobic cocoon and fearing everyone else on the planet. Get with the times, people. We have instant access to each other, 24/7. There's no need for governments or nations anymore. They're too divisive, and they're all holding us back. We need to decide that we're going to be one human race, and then we need to figure out very quickly how we as a human race are going to survive on this planet. Because as much damage as our industrial revolutions have caused (and will continue to cause unless we change course), we can either find a new one or die out a lot faster. We need the world's minds working on greener energy technology, finding out how to co-exist with each other and the planet, and sustain our life here on this rock. Not just our immediate lives, but the life of our species as a whole. We've discovered the entire world. Let's not kill each other off fighting over our discovery, but learn to appreciate it, and share it with many more generations in the future. Until we find another planet to sustain us, that's our best option for survival.

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AZ Moderate

Apr. 29, 2006 at 09:27:01 PM

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June, I don’t view your valid questions and viewpoints (or anyone else’s, for that matter) as criticism. It is invigorating give and take, and it provides me with focus to examine my own viewpoints. Sharpens me right up, you whet stone you!
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Its too late to avoid mixing La Raza with the illegal alien problem – La Raza has take care of that by supporting the Mexican Flag waving demonstrations. True loyalties were inadvertently unsheathed.
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Fences are ineffective unless manned by personnel. The idea is not cost effective, and many of those that advocate for them are doing so out of frustration and as a symbolic gesture. High tech is probably more cost effective, but still requires people on site.
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Guest worker – why can’t we control that legitimate intercourse with Mexico with green card legality? Expand the program if the need is there, and control it. ID the workers, know where they are, protect them from predatory employers under our labor laws, and collect the taxes that are now subsidizing those employers’ businesses via under-the-table payrolls.
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While we’re on the subject of Guest workers, here is an aside on related euphemisms meant to bend your mind. A retired INS Special Agent living in Scottsdale contacted me by e-mail after reading some of these articles posted here on VofA. He has written a book, a copy of which he has sent me. I am part way through it at this writing. One of the things he wrote is:

“Once and for all America must get over the ‘undocumented’ worker nonsense. There is no such thing as an ‘undocumented’ worker.

“During the reign of Commissioner Leonel Castillo (President Carter’s Commissioner of INS), he decided that the term ‘illegal alien’ was demeaning to his fellow Mexicans who had crossed the Rio Grande illegally. In its place, Mr. Castillo and his friends came up with ‘undocumented worker.’

“The term ‘illegal alien’ seems quite appropriate to me. Consider for a moment that people in America are either citizens or aliens; aliens who are not here legally are here illegally. It’s not rocket science! And besides, I arrested thousand of illegal aliens and they all had documents; they just weren’t the right ones.”

I have seen the ultimate euphemism, however, used on VofA by two participants. What the heck is an “illegal citizen”, other than a total capitulation to the PC police and abandonment of one’s critical faculties? The PC idiocy that started in the 1960s and is bastardizing our language has finally stepped off the cliff into Orwellian double-talk meant to convey the opposite of truth. Unacceptable!!!

Harrumph!
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The solution to the problem of those illegal aliens among us is complicated. I watched a program on the illegal alien situation on Anderson Cooper 360 last evening. It explored both sides of the story. The Mexican illegals that were featured are desirable migrants. To uproot them now and send them back is not humane, or desirable for America. On the other hand, there are a great many very marginal illegal Mexicans, some of whom were approached but were mute when asked questions, which have not established themselves. They need to leave, and if they wish, re-enter legally as “guest workers”.

A one size fits all solution is not possible. It will take the Wisdom of Solomon (Oh Solomon where art though?). The solution has many facets, including shutting down the illegal hiring and perhaps an incentive plan coupled with that to encourage voluntary repatriation to the mother country. We will never be able to, nor should we, shovel every single illegal alien back over the border. But we do have to reduce their numbers among us in a rational and humane fashion.
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La Raza (THE RACE) the MOVEMENT (a mindset, very much racial in nature.)
A. The Council of (THE RACE) La Raza (“… a legit Latino advocacy group” that embraces La Raza.)
B. MEChA, (a legit Aztec advocacy group – with many high school and college chapters.)

1. The Council of La Raza embraces the racist movement of La Raza;
2. MEChA supports the racist movement of La Raza, its source of select feeder stock for Aztlan;
3. Therefore The Council of La Raza is linked to MEChA through their common allegiance to La Raza.

You have uncovered no documented link, nor have I. The Council of La Raza is “benign” (if you ignore its name), makes good window dressing and funnels grant money out of foundations and taxpayers pockets. Given: The Council of La Raza is a benign organization that subscribes to an openly racist philosophy.

If you are looking for documented links then this argument will probably not satisfy you. You would have to be able to see the holistic view, the parts in relation to the whole, to see what I see. The fact that so far I have not uncovered any documented link does not belie that linkage through their common allegiance to a racist movement.
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Agendas are irrelevant to immigration policy, but not to enforcement. If the policy in place, instantiated through our laws, were to be rigorously enforced, these agendas would be of no consequence in the context of immigration policy. But they are not. Immigration policy is a hollow policy to the extent that the special interests have the clout to nullify and circumvent the application of the laws to further their agendas.

That is why it is so important for the American people to understand those agendas!
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I have tried to respond to each of your thoughts here, if not to each sentence. I may have missed something in the process. If so please reiterate and I will respond to that missed point.

Your arguments are thought provoking and rational June. Thank you for your interest in this issue and for taking the time to bring your very powerful intellect to bear on it. Inquiring minds want to know.

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