Years ago, I remember chatting with a friend who'd just come back from a series of peace-marches and vigils. And in the recounting of his adventures, he'd mentioned how tasty a particular DC vendor's hot dogs had been, and what a welcome refuelling break they'd provided.
As a vegetarian for most of my life, that statement struck something of a dischord within me: somehow or other, I just felt that participating in a peace-march, and enjoying the results of violence to another living entity, at least aware enough as to be able to feel great pain, and to choose life and freedom for itself vs. life and death in the farm-camps, was a deep incompatibility.
And I was present to the fact that for us to be of real influence in any field, then our actions and our beliefs must be in integrity; not that we have high ideals only, but are prevented from actually integrating them into our own lives because of our own habits or familiar pleasures. After all, if we are not even willing to sacrifice appropriately, to change our patterns for a greater good, in our own lives, then how can we imagine we can inspire others to do such in theirs?
Gandhi advised that we should ourselves "Be the change you wish to see in the world." And certainly, where we can be most powerful is in relation to our own lives and choices. We may or may not be able to directly affect or control things outside of ourselves, but as far as our own choices are concerned, well, that is another world entirely.
So the point is, if we want peace and justice and freedom from exploitation in our world, then that is who we must be in our world, in our dealings with others. And not only that when it is convenient and easy, we can display these qualities, but when there is some cost, or need to sacrifice, then we will prefer to act for our own selfish gratification. So, we do not ourselves want to be used by powerful persons intoxicated by their own greedy and selfish agandas; we don't ourselves want to be mere objects for their gratification ... so then we cannot treat others in that way either. As the humble Nazarene also taught, 'treat others as you would like others to treat you.'
There are so many arguments for vegetarianism, that are perhaps not so relevant here. There are many health arguments, but at the same time, there are plenty of old and healthy carnivores, and plenty of sick vegetarians! And for many people, a shorter life filled with what they enjoy is preferable to a longer but more ascetic one!
Here, however, is a political argument, in the truest meaning of the word, relating to genuine concern for the welfare of all, and recognizing leadership in terms of being responsible for such.
The following is taken from the Bhaktivedanta purports to the ancient Srimad Bhagatam, widely accepted as the ripened fruit of Vedic wisdom. (For whoever's interested, the (at that time) newly-discovered and translated Vedic texts from India were the primary inspiration and source of enlightenment for the American Transcendentalists, most notably Emerson and Thoreau - who were extraordinarily and most humbly appreciative of the wisdom of such works, especially Bhagavad-Gita, the precursor to Srimad Bhagavatam.):
"Has this civilization produced anything but quarrelling individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and the war fields at the whims of a particular man?
It is said ... that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should man not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which, combined together, can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes? Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals?
"... Should not a king or executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality, fraternity and non-violence?
"... We are all creatures of material nature. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that the Lord Himself is the seed-giving father and material nature is the mother of all living beings in all shapes. Thus mother material nature has enough foodstuffs both for animals and men, by the grace of the father almighty, Sri Krsna. the human being is the elder brother of all other living beings. He is endowed with intelligence more powerful than animals' for realizing the course of nature and the indications of the almighty father. Human civilizations should depend on the production of material nature without artificially attempting economic development to turn the world into a chaos of artificial greed and power only for the purpose of artificial luxuries and sense gratification...
"... To be non-violent to human beings and to be a killer or enemy of the poor animals is satan's philosophy. In this age there is enmity towards poor animals, and therefore the poor creatures are always anxious. the reaction of the poor animals is being forced on human society, and therefore, there is always the strain of cold or hot war between men, individually, collectively or nationally.
"... conscious cooperation between man and God and man and nature, as exemplified by King Yuddhisthira, can bring about happiness, peace and prosperity in the world. the attitude of exploiting one another, the custom of the day, will only bring misery."
(from the commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 1, Chapter 10, Texts 4 & 6, by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)
George Bernard Shaw, who became vegetarian under the influence of Shelley, wrote:
"We pray on Sundays that we may have light
To guide our footsteps on the path we tread;
We are sick of war, we don't want to fight,
And yet we gorge ourselves upon the dead."
Yes, we all want peace. So that we must be to all. We imagine this does not need to include the animals, but there is no rational reason for thinking thus - after all, as we seek to eat, sleep, mate and defend in order to prolong and preserve our lives, so do they. Only our attachment to tasting their blood and flesh warps our thinking. Whatever stands in the way of our self-gratification, or is itself a suitable object for such, is necessarily de-personalized, disenfranchised in our language and beliefs. While most of us no longer think of Native Americans as less than human savages, or American descendants of enslaved Africans as 'niggers' or North Vietnames as 'gooks' or Jews as 'kykes,' or gays as 'faggots' and so on and on and on in our glorious and enlightened civilized Western history, we still imagine animals to be but dumb brutes that it is pefectly acceptable to exploit and butcher for our pleasure. Then we should not grumble that there are those in our society who also enjoy the taste of our blood, as it were, who consider that we, as the masses, only usefully exist so as to serve their cruel and greedy purposes, and to pay and to bleed as suits them.
Again then, in the most salient words of Gandhi-ji:
"Be the change you wish to see in the world." And that is our primary civic, and political, duty. Before voting for anyone else to make things right, according to our perspective. First, we push aside our own selfish agendas, that naturally distort our thinking so as to justify their own existence and fulfilment ... and determine what is right action, what is peace and non-violence and justice and all those noble truths ... and then we must, in spite of all our habits and attachments, do what we know to be right and true in the world we wish to see around us. Because it is the truth, not merely a vote for this one or for that, that will set us free.
Vegetarianism and Political Integrity
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Posted By: shring Posted on: Aug. 24, 2006 at 10:31 PM |
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Aug. 24, 2006 at 11:06:41 PM
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| AA has made an excellent point. This is not a common occurrence, so you should pay heed Shring. Why is the animal more sacred that the plant? Both are alive. Intelligence? Do you eat fish? If so, what about porpoise, or dolphin? No? Do you enjoy eggs? They don't have any intelligence. How about invertebrates? Asians eat larvae and grasshoppers. Chocolate covered ants are quite popular. I understand the formic acid makes them taste crispy, tangy, and sweet. Have you ever accidentally stepped on an insect, of God forbid, swallow a gnat? Guess what, insects are part of the Animal kingdom, not the plant. Oh, this all gets very confusing! Where do we draw the line? Is it O.K. when we kill other life unintentionally, but wrong when we seek to do so. Is the hunter worse than the farmer at harvest time? Was it O.K. for primitive man to hunt game because they were too stupid to know of the vegan way, or how to farm? If so, when did hunting become wrong? The day we first yoked up an ox to till our fields and feed a family, the day we learned irrigation techniques to feed a town, or the day John Deere came out with the first tractor? All this thinking makes me hungry. I'm going to have a cheeseburger. |
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Aug. 24, 2006 at 11:40:16 PM
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| Shring, in the bible, God gives Adam and his offspring "dominion" over the animals. Now I could go on for pages, but that essentially means we're to care for them as well as is reasonable, and they in turn provide us food, and clothing. On a more personal level, my wife's a vegan, and man what a pain in the ass that is. Do you have any idea how long it takes to order dinner! "Is ther cheese in that? The soup, does it have a meat or vegetable base?" AAAAAAGH! And Moron, that has been my question since the whole dolpin safe tuna crap came up; why is it kosher to eat tune, and not dolphin? Intelligence? Because pigs and cows are both smarter than horses according to those in the know, and I ain't seen to many "pony" burger joints. And it can't be cuz they're mammals, because I refuse to eat anything that isn't mammal or avian. |
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Aug. 25, 2006 at 01:25:27 AM
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| I could care less about the animals, I just know they taste good and I want to eat them. If someone were to cook up a dolphin, I think I would have to give it a try. If I knew the animals personally, then I would probably have a hard time eating it, but if I didn't know it personally, then I have no problem with it (and I don't). I know, this wasn't a very well thought out response, but like MIC, I think all this talk about eating animals made me hungry. |
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Aug. 25, 2006 at 07:09:44 AM
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| I'll say it just once, If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them taste so damn good. |
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Aug. 25, 2006 at 07:15:51 AM
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| Didn't Hannibal Lechter say the same thing about people?
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Aug. 25, 2006 at 07:50:29 AM
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| The way I figure it, us eating meat now is just payback for all the human beings that the dinosaurs ate 6000 years ago. On the other hand, we could look to that great thinker George W. Bush "I believe man and fish can co-exist peacefully" for our integrity. |
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Aug. 26, 2006 at 06:36:11 AM
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| Your collective responses seem to have 2 basic responses. The first is a mocking indignation that proposes the very fact that you enjoy the taste of meat is more than enough justification for you to not even give such a line of thought a moment of deep consideration. As AA writes: "if God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them taste so damn good." Lovely logic, no doubt. And if applied elsewhere, it might read like this: if God didn't want us to rape women, why'd he make them so damn sexy. When you actually propose the "if it feels good to me, then it's right to do it" theory to live, you invite in a jungle law of unbridled selfishness...with a veneer of civilization added, perhaps. As in the ethics of the Republican leadership, for example. By your logic, there is no reason at all why the government should not tread all over everyone's freedoms, spill as much blood as they want, steal as much for their personal gain via taxation and cheating deals, wiretap and any and every thing else. How's that? Because they can, because they want to, and if God didn't want them to do it, he wouldn't have made the people so easy to take advantage of, and wouldn't have offered the exploiters so much selfish gain as the result of doing so. Honestly, I do not understand how a forum of people ostensibly concerned about political and social justice could be so shallow and selfish in their thinking, and so utterly unable to respond or even consider with a small degee of respect and thoughtfulness this sort of issue! As far as the second aspect of your responses is concerned, namely the rapid-fire questions of AA, and to some degree, of MIC - there are different reasons for asking questions. There are thoughtful persons, who engage in philosophical discussion and debate with an open mind and introspective awareness to help them identify and let go of subjective reaction so as to help them continue to develop their objective understanding. And they ask questions in order to hear and understand the answers. Then there are those who have no real interest to question or expand their own beliefs, no interest in hearing anything that might mean they need to adjust their walk to fit their talk ...just armchair noise-makers, arguing for cheap entertainment, quick to make mocking attacks to avoid any meaningful interaction with the subject-matter at hand ... Needless to say, your questions are hardly original, nor have they been left unanswered through all the millennia that vegetarianism has been presented as not simply a diet, but as a philosophy, a religious practice, a social and political statement. If you actually had any thoughtful interest rather than the knee-jerk silliness displayed in your responses, you could select from a vast array of profound statements from all manner of sources - for instance, the world's religions, eg the Bible and so many commentators such as St Clement of Alexander commenting on the 'purity' of Matthew, who since birth never tasted flesh-foods, and on the vegetarian discipline of the Essenes and Nazarenes; or the fundamental teachings of the Buddha regarding ahimsa, non-violence, as well as all the teachings of the Vedas; through to Thoreau, who believed in the vegetarian philosophy though had difficulty practicing it, along with countless intellectual and moral giants whose vegetarianism was an expression of their connectedness and commitment to all of life, including Gandhi, Isaac Bashevis Singer, Shelley, Shaw,Adam Smith, Tolstoy, Rousseau, Ben Franklin, Pythagoras ... the list goes on and on - but I doubt many of you care one way or the other, and are more than comfortable mockingly dismissing the whole thing, happily ignoring all the realizations and advice of our intellectual, political, social, philosophical, spiritual and moral elders, and simply throwing out a bunch of questions you believe cannot be abswered so that you therefore don't really need to consider any answers anyway. So whether I answer these questions or not, makes little difference. But as an aside, AA, there's already plenty of scientific date aregarding plants' responses to different stimuli, such as different types of music, cutting, fire, etc. And in response to one question that I do find very relevant, from MIC - where do we draw the line ... that answer will vary according to whether the questioner believes in God, and accepts any particular discipline that establishes such lines; or whether s/he is seeking the most morally principled subjective approach, which could perhaps best be summedup by Buddhism's call for non-violence - there the directive is to cause the least possible amount of disturbance to all other living entities on one's own account. But in all cases, the underlying willingness to put aside one's own selfish habits for the sake of others is encouraged - this is the basis of all real practical social and spiritual philosophical practices. Without that attitude, we don't really have a philosophy, just an over-inflated sense of our own disconnected mental processes(disconnected from reality outside our heads/from others/from any practical application in our or anyone else's life!). It is hard to take your questions seriously, or make a particularly serious or informative response, because it doesn't seem to me that you're listening! I came to this site to engage in thoughtful discussion with people who were actually serious about political and social philosophy and self-application, and who could engage in thoughtful and respectful debate and questioning. Unfortunately, I haven't found that here, yet. |
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Aug. 26, 2006 at 11:02:01 AM
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| YOu have not found that here yet only because none of us have jumped onto your bandwaggon, thrown down out steak knives of mass distruction and joined you in the utopian lifestyle which you preach. If one of us had said, by God you right, you would be singing the praises of this open minded group and rejoicing in the orgasmic happiness that you have shared with yet another meat eating totalitarian, thus saving us from the turmoil that boils inside our right brain dominated love of flesh. Dude, get over it. We eat meat, you don't, it's cool. We don't get you but that's not a big deal, just flow with it, maybe suck on some broth later and chill your inner carnivore. |
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Aug. 26, 2006 at 11:30:18 AM
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| Could you be more condescending to us Shring? I love to be dismissed simply because I don't share your beliefs. AA states: "If one of us had said, by God you right, you would be singing the praises of this open minded group . . ." It is truly scary just how keen and perceptive some of AA's comments have been lately. Don't mistake my rapid-fire questions for a closed minded silly attempt at levity at your expense. Well O.K., they were partly that. But they are also quite serious and I would like you to answer them. Answers like DO THE LEAST HARM don't cut it. Who are you to decide that the plant you ate is done less harm than the cow I charbroiled? This is a philosophical debate. I'm attempting to test the bounbdaries of your belief system using the Socratic method. Socrates used questions to expose the logical inconsistencies of his contemporaries' beliefs - leading to a reductio ad absurdum. I'm sorry if you think these questions are beneath you. We simply aren't as enlightened as you see yourself to be. |
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I can still drink mountan dew right? I don't think it is actually dew from a mountain so I really don't think I have taken anyting from another living creature in drinking it. Please let me know.
One more question, if, and this is a big if, scientist develop a test that shows that plants feel pain, what is our collective back up plan?
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