Explain this to me...please.

Posted By: Average American
Posted on: Oct. 2, 2006 at 12:16 AM

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I need help from you liberals on a subject that I just do not understand.

Now I have stood side by side with you on the subject of a paper trail for our votes, agreeing whole heartedly with you that a paper ballot must be maintained for validation should there be any question at all about the accuarcy of the vote counts. (something I am told my party of registration does not agree with, although I have yet to hear a Republican say that) But I am still beating my head on the wall about the required I.D. at the polling place. Why do you guys not want I.D. to be required to be able to vote?

Now I have read articles about it being racist, but I still don't see how it can possibly be racist to require everyone voting whether black, white latino, oriental or native American looking person to show I.D.

I have seen and heard one arguement that it will somehow alienate legal residents who want to vote, because the look mexican and they are afraid they will be hastled at the polling place. It doesn't matter what you look like if you have proof of citzenship you will be allowed to vote, right?

I have seen and heard reports of how older people might not be able to provide I.D. because perhaps their kids have done the smart thing and taken 98 year old Grandpa's license from him because he can't see and he lives with them so none of the unilities are in his name for additional proof. Don't these people have medicare cards and Social Security cards and New Horizon medical cards and maybe even a state I.D. card they can show. They send you a voter card to give you the proof you need to vote, don't these people keep track of this stuff. Don't tell me they might lose it because that is not an excuse when you get pulled over by the DPS for speeding and you don't have your license with you. Some things need to be your responsibility. Hell I.d say they would probably accept military discharge papers from WWII if you still have them. This is a bogus arguement too from where I sit.

Then there is the arguement that the poor might not be able to prove who they are, well they can prove it to get their welfare check, and they can prove it to get their food stamps and utility assistance checks and they can prove it enough to get their kids into HeadStart, they can sure as hell prove it enough to vote.

voter_cards

And I love hearing this one, "It will supress voter turn out"; HOW exactly will it do that? I can see it supressing illegal voters from turning out, you know, people who don't have a legal right to vote in our national of state elections, that I agree with, and I see that as a good thing.

Look, even these guys get the concept of having to prove who you are, and they've voted once in their entire life...------------->

I consider voting to be a sacred right of all American's and to not require you to prove your right to vote by showing some I.D., a license, a voter card, a utility bill or two, a few credit cards or SS card is to act as if voting is non-important and that we should be fine with anyone voting whether they have a vested interest in the outcome or not.

I am really reaching out to you guys here to give me a good reason why we should not require I.D. to prove that you are the person on the form and that you are the correct person to exercise this all important right to vote on election day.

Please enlighten me if you could... I have given you the reasons I have heard and I have explained why they don't hold water. I am sure that you progressive thinking intellectuals will have a solid answer as to why you think it is ok to not ask for someone to prove they are who they say they are before voting. Oh, and please don't try, "because in 200 plus years of American history we have never required it", bacause that would be like me telling you we don't need OSHA or Welfare or Social Security because for 150 years we didn't have them; times change and we need to be progressively moving with the times folks. Oops, I know that's your claim to fame, being progressive and all.

But what would I know; obviously not the answer to this question; I'm just an Average American.

Should you have to show I.D. to vote in America's elections?

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Phaedrus

Oct. 2, 2006 at 08:44:04 AM

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From you

It doesn't matter what you look like if you have proof of citzenship you will be allowed to vote, right?

Sure. Except the standard used for people with dark skin will be much harder than for folks with white skin.

"Oh, this don't look like you, boy. We can't let you vote. Besides you're in the wrong precinct."

The John Roberts and William Rhenquists can always find a reason to block a negro form voting. Thats why the Voting Rights Act made it illegal for there to be any tests or id requirements for voting.

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indie616

Oct. 2, 2006 at 05:42:34 PM

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I don't have a problem with showing ID to vote as long as there are enough forms of ID accepted for non-drivers, non home owners etc. Also, anyone who wants to vote and doesn't have the right ID must have the right to a provisonal ballot.

I just want the votes to counted fairly and in a manner that can be verified. I want the dirty tricks on both the Democratic and Republican sides to stop. I want the waiting times to be the same in the rich white districts as the poor black districts.

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Average American

Oct. 2, 2006 at 06:28:58 PM

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SO neithe ron eof you have any reason to fight this thing. Good.

Oh I read your Race bated remarks Phaedrus, I just don't agree with your premise that we are all a bunch of racists trying to stop the Blacks from voting. I don't want illegals to vote, period, no matter what color they are.

And Indie, I disagree, if you don't have the proper I.D., you just don't vote, provisional of otherwise. This is a last ditch attempt to allow illegals to vote.

And you don't need 500 different ways to prove who you are. When you go to open a bank account there are a few, not hundreds of accepted I.D.s, should be the same with voting. There are legal I.D.'s, like a drivers license, state i.d. card with all 50 state offer and the voter registration card. Any two on demand should suffice. just tlike there is only one legal Arizona Drivers license we don't need to create loopholes for people who don't want to do something to make sure their vote is legally made.

So do we have any other takers on the question as to why we should not have to show I.D. to vote????

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indie616

Oct. 2, 2006 at 07:10:07 PM

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AA,
The provisional ballot is necessary. Here is an example:

People might not be aware of the requirements (especially because the provisions are somewhat new). They should not be disenfranchised because of that. If they can go to the offices within the allotted time with the correct paperwork, they should have the right to vote.

Voting is a precious right. Every effort should be make to
A) ensure the process is fair and all eligible voters are able to cast a vote
B) ONLY qualified voters get to vote.

So we need to bend over backwards to ensure that voters who are eligible can cast a ballot. There is nothing last ditch about it.

Lets say that you went to vote and found on the way in that your wallet had been pickpocketed or lost. It was 10 minutes before the polls closed and there was no way for you to get home and dig up the right paperwork. You would be disenfranchised, and screaming to high heaven. That is were the provisional ballot comes in. You would have time to gather 2 other forms of acceptable ID, and have your vote count.

What is wrong with that?

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Phaedrus

Oct. 2, 2006 at 07:57:57 PM

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I think that we should adopt the standards Minnesota has.

Same day voter registration.

The reason I'm so passionate about this is because my wife in 2004 was blocked from voting in Yavapai County, because the recorder claimed she wasn't registered there. Even though we both registered at the same time.

So we drove to our old polling place, and Yavapai County had scrubbed her from voting in Maricopa. Now how could she be knocked off the rolls in the old neighborhood, but not get to vote in the new one?

We're Americans, we pay taxes, but Republican officials barred her from voting.

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Average American

Oct. 2, 2006 at 10:34:07 PM

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FIne Indie, the first time out we make some exceptions based on the fact that these are new rules, but beyond that, s*** happens. We do not allow people to get around re-entry into the country because their passport was stolen the day of their return trip. We make them go to the embassy and gat a new one, they lose their plane flight seat and the money paid for it unless someone takes pitty on them.

When you get caugt driving without your license you get a ticket for it.

Your insurance expired yesterday, you still get the ticket.

You last checks bounced because you forgot to transfer money into your checking account to pay your rent, guess what, the landlord will not require certified checks or money orders from now on. s*** happens.

If after the first time out voting the requierments are publicised all over God's green Earth and you are the only one who missed the message, tough crap, even if it were me.

Phaedrus, just wondering, when you guys reregistered in the new country did your wife get a confirmation card in the mail. If not, then it is her fault that she could not vote, not some Republican charged with verification procedures. After you register you get a confirmation card, if you do not it is your responsibility to make sure you have it.

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A Proud Liberal

Oct. 2, 2006 at 11:39:15 PM

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Once again, you make it sound so reasonable in your ignorance. Old discharge papers and even current military ID are NOT accepted, they do not have current addresses. The way the Proposition that made this a requirement is worded requires one of two alternatives. There is column 1 where a single piece of ID suffices. These are your picture IDs, most typically driver’s license or ID card. (As an aside my 78 year old father and 8 year old daughter both have the same AZ state issued IDs, it is just not widely known that this is possible.) The catch is the address on this ID must match exactly to the address that appears on the voter rolls. If it does not you either, vote provisionally or provide two pieces of ID from column 2. This is where car registration, utility bills, voter card, etc come into play. Again, the name and address on these must be the same as appears on the voter rolls. If everything is in the husband’s name and the wife doesn’t drive, her only alternative is to vote provisionally. This is true even if the husband used the same documents to vote himself, he cannot vouch for his wife of 80 years. A wedding certificate or birth certificate would NOT be sufficient since it does not have a current address.

One can avoid all of these hassles by voting by mail using an “early ballot.” However if you are standing in your precinct on election day and did not know all the particulars this is not an available option.

The whole system presents two problems: There are no first time allowances for ignorance of the requirements. Many voters become frustrated with the whole ordeal and give up their franchise. The fifteen county elections officials all say the current requirements have serious flaws and will lead to less participation by qualified voters. You are a person who tries to keep up with requirements and had many misconceptions about the requirements. The existence of the provisional ballot is a Federal requirement after the debacles of 2000 and 2004.

Since we live in Arizona, the Legislature cannot fine-tune the law either. No, I’m not crazy. The Arizona state Constitution says anything voted by the people cannot be changed or reversed by the Legislature. Any “fine-tuning” would be by initiative only. A historic example of this comes from the early 1960s. We used to have an auto safety inspection requirement in Arizona prior to licensing. The inspections were performed by private mechanics, many of whom found “problems” that required repair before the car could pass the safety inspection. This pissed people off so much they got the inspection law reversed by initiative and there have been no safety inspections for autos since. This would be true even if the Feds tried to require one because the state Constitution trumps federal laws and regulations.

So I will support efforts to stop illegal voting only if the efforts to get qualified voters voting are at least as strong or stronger.

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A Proud Liberal

Oct. 3, 2006 at 12:01:15 AM

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By the way, your poll is bogus. It does not have the answer NO the honor system has worked for a long time and the changes in the world have not effected this. The time and place to determine eligibility is at registration not at the polls.

Yes, I believe this fascination with illegal immigrants is just a smoke screen of conservative Republicans to keep us distracted from the real problems and issues of our time.

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Average American

Oct. 3, 2006 at 08:52:44 AM

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"You are a person who tries to keep up with requirements and had many misconceptions about the requirements"

Actually I was just talking about possibilities for reform, I was not statin gthat this is the way it is. And the firs ttime exceptions was in the same vain.

I think the new requirements work just fine. Ignorance is no excuse and if you are too lazy to get a state I.D. then I don't want you voting anyway, it obviously isn't something you have put much thought into.

Here's how i wish they had done it...

State License or I.D. card and rhe registration card period. If you don't have these you don't vote period.

This would eliminate all illegal votes and those votes of people who probably don't have a clue what they are voting on anyway. Like I have said before, my sister does not vote because she thinks they don't count them anyway, I for one have thrilled she does not. She admits she has not idea on many of the issues and would just be voting based on what others have told her, not actually researching any of the informaiton herself for an informed vote.

"Once again, you make it sound so reasonable in your ignorance." And do me a favor and shelve the condescending attitude will ya. Makes you seem smug.

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Phaedrus

Oct. 6, 2006 at 06:33:01 AM

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Alright, so now the reason to require 2 ID's has junped, of his own admission, from keeping illegal aliens from voting, or to stop vote fraud, TO KEEPING THE IGNORANT MASSES FROM VOTING. Thats elitist, and monarchist, and wrong.

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